Many of you have expressed the wish that streamers could be see as innuOS 2.0 players working as a multi-room system. innuOS uses the playback engine from the Logitech Media Server which does provide multi-room capabilities. Streamers having an option for a Squeezelite player will be able to be seen already as innuOS players. Our next objective is to enable this feature for streamers using the UPnP / DLNA / OpenHome protocol.
Currently there is a LMS plugin that can be activated and provide basic support for this scenario. This is still being tested to check whether it's a stable option and will still need to be integrated properly into the Innuos Sense UI. But soon we will provide an article to show you how to enable/disable this option so you can try on your systems.
Is there any news on this? I see it is "Held for Moderation" but do not know what that means.
It's good to know it can work with a Naim nac-n 272. For me, it hasn't worked well. If I turn the nac-n272 input to iRadio, its display shows the radio station, but it plays from my zen via the sense app. If the nac-n272 is set to the UPNP input, the sense app thinks it is playing, but there is no sound from the naim amp. I have tried the Naim Uniti profile and the default profile. I would like to get this working properly so I can play from Qobuz. Maybe worth adding that it works from Logitech MediaServer but not from the Innuos App.
Best to reach us out at Support describing in more detail. You mention that it plays when you have the input set to iRadio rather than UPnP which does not seem to make sense - the Naim should need to be in UPnP mode to play. This is the mode you use when using the Naim app correct? Also you mention it works from LMS but not from Sense which again is strange because Sense is using LMS for this. Anyway, reach us out in Support, add more detail of what you have tried and we should be able to help you out.
Rather than just having the builtin squeezelite player as an option can you enable upnp/dlna so we can also use Sonos endpoints etc.
I've enabled the upnpbridge within LMS and accessing the squeeze player page I can stream to Sonos speakers but would be nice to have this functionality available in the innuos main screen.
Hi everyone, we've updated the existing profiles and also added a profile for Sonos S2. Just restart the server and re-apply your profile. For Naim, it should now show album art on local files. Qobuz/Tidal will not show metadata/art on any streamer yet but this will be covered on a future update. If the artwork on Naim doesn't show, try restarting the Naim to clear cache. We'll be adding new profiles almost on a daily basis as we get more systems tested.
UPNP support works flawlessly on my Zen and Zenmini. I am using the Naim Uniti profile for my Naim Nac-N 272. It plays local tracks and Qobuz tracks without any problems. Thanks!
EDIT: the Naim Uniti profile gives problems with Qobuz - playback often stops after a song has ended. I went back to the Default Profile. No problems after >24 hours of playback from Qobuz.
My Arcam AV40 is found without a problem. Playback with the sense App works.
Unfortunately, the last 10-20 seconds of each song are cut off and playback of the next song starts.
I will have to do some sound quality comparison with Roon which I used until now (and going forward if the issue mentioned above remains)
Go into Server/Setting/Audio - click the 3 dot menu next to your streamer - choose Settings then you will find a drop down menu with the available profiles.
The default did not work with my Lyngdorf streaming amp (similar to your symptoms) so I ended up on the Linn profile which is still not perfect but does play all of the tracks!
I notice there is now a BubbleUPnP (Android) one so I may try that tomorrow.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for the assist, but I don‘t have much energy for trial and error. I prefer to sit down and listen to music which works fine with Roon.
Unless Innuos provides a Profile dedicated for the Arcam AV40 which I am then willing to give it a go an test.
Keep on rocking!
Well it would only take 10 minutes max to try it out and I thought you were eager to get it working without truncated tracks? The reason I took the time to answer your question.
Possibly sitting there waiting for an Arcam AV40 profile to magically appear is going to be fruitless as you will probably need to ask support to provide one and that also will require some degree of interaction.
Indeed, enjoy the music.
Hi. Great that the Ethernet works now eh folks. One problem I do have though, is that when I play to my Naim ndx2, there seems to be gaps between each track when I play an album. Is this a known problem yet to be ironed out. And does anyone else have this problem?
Yes I had gaps - noticed it as I was playing a live album … the old way was definitely gapless playback
It might be handy to have a regularly updated list here showing which streamers now have custom profiles available. That will help people avoid regularly restarting their Innuos products to check when a profile for their model becomes available....
Hi everyone, there's a world of UPnP streamers out there with different implementations and features. Almost each streamer needs its own profile to work perfectly so it will need some time to build a sizable database of devices. Eventually a good option will be to post an article explaining how to try the UPnP Bridge LMS plugin parameters so that users can send us what works directly. Another option is for us to do some remote sessions so we can help with that. In general, we haven't made changes to the way this integration works from Beta to the final version - it's mostly getting a more intuitive UI to list the UPnP devices on Settings Audio and enabling/disabling UPnP. If it worked on Beta, should work on the final as well. Anyway, it will be a long process to cover everything out there so bear with us.
P.S. - Please contact us through Support for issues with UPnP Streamers or new profiles required. This space here is mostly to discuss ideas and general info for everyone. We can't support users here on a one-to-one basis.
Are Bluesound Node player/streamers supported?
Try the Default profile. This works for Sonos and B&O Beosound, for example.
My Bluesound (BluOS) player won’t show up on the Innuos Sense app. It can stream from my Zen Mini mk3 no problem from within the BluOS app, but I’d prefer to use the Sense app for everything.
Are you sure you have set the UPnP to Sense mode as per the link below "connecting-network-streamers" because IF you have then your Bluesound should NOT be able to see the Zen as a UPnP source on your network because it is not one anymore - it is now a player- looking for UPnP clients it can SEND music to rather than sitting inactive waiting to be asked for material!
If you get that far then don't forget you have to click on the volume icon in the Zen playing screen and select your Bluesound as the destination.
Bluesound does not support UPNP. See support1.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/4437533453463-Bluesound-Node-2021-and-DLNA
Yes, I saw that. But they use SMB (Windows File Sharing) over UPnP and DLNA.
The Node 'pulls' the music files from storage via SMB; it cannot work as a UPNP renderer.
@Robert Borley did you ever get your Bluesound player to work with the Sense app? I'm thinking about a Bluesound Node but want it to work with Sense. Thanks
No I did not. I have tried again recently and it still doesn’t work. Shame really because I like both players but I can’t listen to them in multi room mode.
Still doesn’t work. Regardless of configuration, output does not work on sense or UPnp
I'll be adding the pages for setup on our Support Knowledge Base very soon. Will notify here when done.
Thanks for that, a much awaited update.
Just a couple of tips I have found -
If your Innuos App is showing your network streamer in the list of available players BUT will not appear when you click on the volume button then go into Audio Settings, disable your streamer, then do a refresh and enable it again. Mine was still showing from the beta 4 test and would not work until I did this - I have also had to do it after I tried a different profile for the streamer.
My Lyngdorf TDAi-1120 streaming Amp does not work with the default profile - I have to chose Naim or Linn and it then appears to work correctly EXCEPT that it only shows artwork on the Lyngdorf client app on approx 10% of the tracks? The beta 4 software showed the artwork 100%?
Just a couple of quick tests since the update last night - no serious listening as I am all blocked up after the dreaded Covid!
Just remembered - also, certainly for my Lyngdorf streamer, if you choose a different input, say Vinyl or something, whilst the Innuos sense is playing via UPnP
then when you switch back to UPnP input/source on the streamer Innuos sense will not start to play again - I have to disable/enable my streamer in Audio settings as above before it will play again.
Thanks Nuno. I have followed the steps to setup my Zen mini connected to Naim NDX ( GEN 1, as digital transport only ). Now I can play music from the hard disk with no problem but can not play Tidal or Qobuz - it stuck in the first few seconds of each song. I have tried both default and Naim Unity profile. A separate question, NDX doesn't do Qobuz, will I get Qobuz played through NDX with the new UPnP mode ?
Just a thought - I had the same problem when testing the the beta version with my Lyngdorf streamer - changed to the Linn profile and it all all worked OK! Worth a try?
Qobuz should play fine to your NDX. Contact us on Support and we can try and check parameters to see if we get that working.
UPnp is now working fine with my NDX with the newly added Bubble UPnP profile. This update has breath new life into my 9 year old NDX. I love the sound of NDX as a streamer to my Aqua La Scala DAC, now I can play Qqbuz and Tidal Master through it with the fantastic Sense app. Thank you Innuos!
Hi, let me provide a few clarifications regarding the UPnP streamer integration. First, it is based on the LMS UPnP Bridge plugin as before. For compatibility with users using our AssetUPnP integration, when we install 2.1.0, we disable the UPnP plugin integration. Go to Settings > UPnP so you can enable it again for you. Then go to Settings > Audio, check if the streamer you want is enabled and go to the settings on the streamer. Choose a profile for the streamer based on the existing list or default if not listed there. If your device is not listed, you can contact us on Support so we can do a remote session to check on settings and create a profile for it. Profiles are read from our cloud server so there is no need to update the software to have new profiles, the server checks for new profiles online when it boots. So if you have streamers that aren't working correctly, let us know and we should be able to get a working profile for those. Bear in mind though there are many devices out there so this will be an ongoing job and may take some time.
Hi Nuno, thanks for the clarifications. Works for me now on Naim
Thanks Nuno - I can’t get it to play on my Naim Atom - I’ve followed the instructions - pressed “play” on a selected album but can’t hear anything on the Atom … I can’t see the Zen in the list of Servers on the Naim app any more - I’m completely baffled as to how I play anything ???
Thanks. I see my SOTM streamer but not my Wattson Emerson ANALOG streamer. Can you add it?
It probably won't show in the Naim app because it is no longer acting as as UPnP server - it is now a player. So you need to choose the Naim as the destination from within the Sense app - click on the volume button at the bottom of the screen and choose your Naim Atom?
Sorry, that was a reply to "J" above
Thanks Woodbar - the important bit I didn’t realise was the need to click on the volume icon to select the Naim - that step probably needs to be made a bit more obvious for new users (& idiots like me 😂) 👍
Reach us out in Support. it will depend on the network streamer. In some cases it's better to transcode directly to WAV and just send WAV to the streamer.
Same problem as J below, Sense UPnP Integration does not detect my Hegel H390 where the previous third party upnp bridge plugin when installed was finding it right away after a zen restart.
Thank you for including this functionality in 2.1 ... could you provide some information on now how to use the Sense Player to "drive" the upnp device ... I have a Naim Atom and although I clicked on the new option in the UPNP page I didn't hear anything coming through my Ethernet attached Atom ... I note elsewhere on the Innuos User Forum on facebook that a Linn UPNP user is equally baffled.
Any help would be appreciated.
I've installed the plug-in via LMS so time ago and it works quite well. Knowing Innuos attention to details I believe the "quite" isn't good enough. Anyway on Android phones Bubble UPNP allows the streaming from Innuos to Raspberry Pi4 with various OS. Using PiCore Player on Raspberry is still the better option for stability and sound quality. I'm making experiments with the Pi since it allows the comparison with a wide range of OS.
Yes - apparently V2.1.0 is in "public beta" since 9th May and this includes "Support for UPnP/DLNA players" so I am hoping we may get it released soon!
Fantastic - this is the functionality I am most excited about - I use a Naim Atom and to have the facility to play using the very tactile Sense app (rather than the quite old fashioned Naim interface) will be wonderful 👍
Absolutely - I use a Lyngdorf TDAi-1120 which also has a very meagre UPnP menu so I am having to use optical for the moment.
I bought the Innuos primarily because it has an ethernet port for streaming music. I find the sound quality the best via ethernet. I have a Hegel HD30 DAC with an ethernet port. Before I bought the Innuos I used to stream from my NAS to the DAC using Bubble UPnP.
Now I have use the inbuilt Roon core/player and Roon picks up the 'Airplay" option on my DAC and am able to then play from the Innuos via ethernet (the Hegel HD30 does is not wifi enabled). Joao of the support team actually figured this out for me! (thanks Joao!).
But will be great to have the option in the app itself so one doesnt need BubbleUPnP or Roon. Thanks for taking this up. Eagerly look forward to this feature.
My Zen Mini Mk3 + LPSU all setup and I must say I am very impressed with the SQ feeding the Lyngdorf TDAi1120 via optical. I am now eager to try the UPnP but a bit confused - will I break anything trying the plug-in available now or is there still an update to be applied?
Just waiting for my Zen Mini Mk3 + LPSU to arrive so reading all I can on the subject!
I want to be able to use the UPnP function on my Lyngdorf TDAi1120 streaming digital Amp with the Innuos Sense app (which looks superb) so I am hoping this is, or will be, possible? The Lyngdorf does not have USB input - only digital and Ethernet.
The Lyngdorf app is very good EXCEPT for navigating content on UPnP sources!
Great news Nuno.
LMS DLNA plug in works quite flawlessly once refined with some additional code lines.
Native LMS multiroom option anyway is much more reliable to me and most importantly allows for synchronization between various players which is a great option IMO
Thank you and to your crew for your precious job.
Could you maybe share these additional code lines?
I'm experimenting so at the moment it's a "don't try this at home". As soon as I'll have a stable solution for it it will be a pleasure to share it.
Just updated to 2.10 and lost internet workaround, :9000/Default/settings/index.htm
No longer brings up the lps menu. What has changed?
You'll need to install the plugin again manually on LMS. The update needed to refresh the LMS plugins installed and since this is not a plugin we normally use, it's uninstalled by this. We expect to release on version 2.1 a direct integration on innuOS that resolves these inconveniences.
Is there a eta on this update…?
Thanks for prompt reply. Unfortunately, I do not know how to install the plugin. The :9000 suffix does not work.
Yes thank you!
Hello @Nuno, I have a question, I just received the zen and installed the upnp bridge. Everything works great with my Hegel H390 with integrated streamer. Just wondering in the purpose of best sound accuracy, in the upnp bridge setting, is it better to not transcode or transcode to PCM and send PCM 24 bit to the streamer when playing FLAC/Quobuz? Thx in advance. Mathieu.
Also is it better practice to activate flow check box to properly buffers and unpack to pcm?
It does depend on the streamer. Our purpose is to start building profiles based on the community feedback to facilitate installing for users. You can try both ways and check if there is any difference in sound. Transcoding to WAV is very light on the server, should not have much of a influence there.
Ok, thx for the guidance. Transcoding to PCM wav definitely better than sending FLAC directly to streamer but the sound looses a little of its punch, which seems to be fixed when forcing the upnp bridge to send PCM raw by having raw first in the codec pcm format list advanced options. Most streamer however do not report 24 bit raw pcm capabilities in their protocolInfo (audio/L24;rate=*;channels=*) only 16 bit raw pcm (audio/L16;rate=*;channels=*) so additional MimeType need to be added in advanced codec option section in the form of something like audio/L24;rate=192000 and keep resample and sample size at source in the transcode advanced option. Now raw first is definitely not as stable as having wav first in the PCM format list, not sure why, something the do with the header needed to be known by the upnp streamer before anything to be played by LMS. The flow option is not really manageable for more than couple of songs playlist and come with the restriction of fixed sample size and rate.
I can select my Naim NDS or the USB output of my ZENmini via the volume bar in the bottom right-hand corner of the screen since I installed 2.0.8. Thanks!
I have installed the UPNP-bridge plugin via IP-address-of-my-ZENmini:9000 as described below.
I have now used this option to play to my NDS or my ND5XS. It works like a charm >90% of the time. Exceptions:
- some tracks from Qobuz do not play to the end. The next track starts too soon.
- sometimes if I pause a track, I can only restart it from the beginning.
- sometimes if I quickly jump to the next track multiple times, the system halts and I must go back some tracks to restart it. I know this problem from the SmallGreenComputer upnp-bridge.
I am a potential Statement purchaser and Naim Streamer user and am concerned at not having access to the full functionality of the Statement. Is this issue only about use/convenience of the app or is there a sound quality impact? I assume I will be able to browse and select music stored on the Statement and select streaming services from the Naim app but will I be losing out on sound quality or only convenience?
Hi Martin, this is just about using the Innuos Sense App and play music on the Naim using the features available on the Sense app. You can perfectly enable the UPnP Server on the Statement and use the Naim app as it currently stands.
I used the UpNP plug-in with the older Innuos software and it worked okay, but there were always some issues. Now with InnuOS 2.0.7 it is very flakey. Hope to see it integrated and working correctly in the new OS very soon! PS otherwise loving the new app. Thanks Nuno!
I installed Logitech Mediaserver 8.2.0 (LMS) on a Windows pc and enabled the plugins for Qobuz and UPnP/DLNA bridge. (This is the same LMS version that is installed on my ZENmini Mk3 with InnuOS 2.0.6..) From the LMS server on the pc, I can play directly to my Naim NDS via its UTP input. The system has now been playing a playlist from Qobuz with added albums from Qobuz and albums from my local library for over 10 hours non-stop. I can control it via the web interface of LMS or with an app on my tablet. It runs flawlessly and responds very quickly.
First impression is that the sound quality is slightly lower than that with the ZENmini as server, but there are more links in the chain and Windows settings, power supplies and cables have not been optimized yet.
Then I opened the LMS settings on my ZENmini via IP-ADDRESS:9000 and turned the UPnP/DLNA plugin on. Restarted the LMS server to complete the plugin installation; restarted the ZENmini just to be sure. In LMS Settings/UPnP/DLNA bridge I see that the Naim NDS has been discovered and added. But the InnuOS 2.0 system does not show it as player. The problem is InnuOS, not the underlying LMS.
Are you sure? Have you clicked on the currently selected player name? That should provide with a list of available players.
Yes, I am sure. I only see the built-in SPDIF output and the USB-SPDIF converter connected to a USB port. Refreshing the list does not help.
Where exactly should I click on the player name?
I looked under Server>Settings>Player Settings.
After the settings changes via the Logitech Media Server mentioned above, the ZENmini plays to my Naim NDS via UTP (UPnP) by default, even though the NDS is not visible in the Server>Settings>Player Settings>Player output list.
I cannot play to the players that are listed there, viz. the built-in SPDIF-output and the Sonore USB-to-SPDIF converter.
I did not notice this at first. I selected the SPDIF input, but the NDS automatically switches to the UTP (UPnP) input when a signal is present on this input. It overruled my input selection and I forgot to check...
It's not supposed to be listed on the Player section at this stage. You can select the active player on player name that shows next to the volume control. This opens a list of available players.
Hi Nuno, Thanks for responding. I tried to do what you suggest. The problem is that I see only one player (the NDS); the other two (which I see in the player settings) do not show up in the list you indicate. Actually, what happens is that volume slider expands for the current player (the NDS), but no list of players pops up. Regards, Arjen
Please contact us on support so we can follow this up privately.
I have emailed support.
To put things in perspective:
- InnuOS should respond to our feature request. Give us a time line. After all, you advertise your servers as a high end solution for Naim (and other UPNP) users, and boast about the dedicated UTP port for streamers.
- But the 'old' way of using the InnuOS server via UPNP (with BubbleUPNP or the Naim app) still works.
- My problem with the 'old' way is that InnuOS 2 changed the sound via UTP. It has become too forward for my taste. My NUC with Windows and Asset UPNP now sounds better than my Zen Mini Mk3. With InnuOS 1.4.x it did not.
InnuOS claims that InnuOS 2 improves the sound quality, period. A repetition of what happened when they introduced version 1.4.3. It is almost like they do not understand that high-end hifi systems are a balancing act which can be disturbed by small changes somewhere in the chain.
InnuOS denies requests for a roll-back to an older OS version because that would undo bug fixes. Hard to accept... It should be possible to separate bug fixes and major OS changes, and to allow a user friendly roll back. PS Audio has done this for years. It is a right that buyers have, given their investment in high end audio gear.
I have been using a USB-to-SPDIF converter for a couple of weeks now, and I must say I enjoyed using the InnuOS 2 system and the Sense app. But sound quality is my priority. So, I have decided to put my plans for upgrading to a Zenith on the back burner, and to investigate alternative server solutions.
Just want to add to the voices of those ethernet-streaming users (Naim) who would love to utilize the new Sense app. I have read from the sidelines about the advances being made in the Sense app since no one with a UPnP-based ethernet streamer is able to utilize the new direction Innuos has taken. I've gone back to the Naim app since the initial InnuOS upgrades this summer with my Innuos Zen III basically acting as a very expensive hard drive. Would love to enjoy the benefits of the new OS and app. Otherwise the value-add many of us bought into with Innuos over the past 3-5 years has become irrelevant. Like everyone else I'd love to see this sooner rather than later. It does appear a handful of folks are able to utilize this LMS workaround in the meantime. Providing the promised article detailing how to use this workaround from July's would be a great stopgap since it's now October and no other mention has been made.
Since updating to version 2.06 I have been unable to configure my Zen mini mk2 to play to UPnP streamers and as a result my Naim Unitiqute 2 is unable to ‘see’ the Zen mini, with the result I can’t play my stored music. Zen mini is visible on my network. I have tried everything to get it to work. It worked fine on version 1.x. Innuos support team have been unable to come up with a solution and I’m tearing my hair out in frustration.
I have the opposite: I cannot turn off the upnp server on my ZenMini Mk3.
I've just downloaded v2.06 and the interface seems much better than my previous 1.4.7. I just wanted to be sure that I understand the full potential of this version in my system. I have an Zen MKII connected by ethernet to a Naim NDS streamer. A Naim Muso streamer (1st gen) is also connected to the network by ethernet. I use the Naim app to play music from the server or from Tidal. So currently I could only use the Sense app instead of the Naim app with the NDS provided the Zen's USB digital output was connected to one of the NDS digital inputs, and I would not be able to do this with the Muso. However, this proposed feature addition would allow both these devices to be effectively controlled by the Sense app. If this is correct, I'm in!
I'm eager to use my UPNP streamer with the Sense app. The app/operating system has tremendously improved the user friendliness, but I am now forced to insert a USB-to-SPDIF converter to use it with my Naim. I would very much like to go back to using UTP.
Is there any way to roll back to a previous version? At the moment my Zen mini is an expensive brick
Does this mean I can’t use my Naim Unitiqute 2 as a streamer with Zen Mini mkII (v2.0.5) as a server? Currently Sense can’t integrate a UPnP player
This is a critical feature for those of us who use our Innuos device's Ethernet output to service multiple zones. In my case, after upgrading my Zen Mini Mk3 to 2.0.5 OS, I was disappointed to find no endpoint devices could be detected. In my home, I run Roon Core to stream wirelessly to 3 independent zones (a headphone station attached to an Auralic strreamer, a Q Acoustics "Q Active 200" loudspeaker in my living room, and a dedicated listening room also attached to an Auralic device). Ideally, testing can include these excellent endpoint products. As much as I'd like to try out the Sense control app, the current situation is a non-starter for anyone in my situation.
Hi Nuno, will also the auralic femto streamer be part of your testings?
Today, I started the Sense app on my Android tablet, so that it was searching for servers before I started my ZENith. It found the (server and) player without needing a restart. (I'll try this again next time.)
The lms plugin guideline/ article, is there any news of a timeline for when we will see it ???
When we start working on it, it will show under the In Progress section on the roadmap. Sorry but we don't provide any dates to release features. This will depend on priorities and this can change - in fact this is the point of the Feedback Zone: You can all influence what's done next!
Hi Nuno when will the update for the Zen mk2 be out, can not see any mention of it
Hi Nuno - how does Naim Uniti Atom fit with your comment ?
The Naim Uniti is one of the units being tested so yes it would apply to it.
Fantastic - thanks 👍