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Provide support to play music to streamers via Ethernet on innuOS 2


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Nuno Vitorino

Many of you have expressed the wish that streamers could be see as innuOS 2.0 players working as a multi-room system. innuOS uses the playback engine from the Logitech Media Server which does provide multi-room capabilities. Streamers having an option for a Squeezelite player will be able to be seen already as innuOS players. Our next objective is to enable this feature for streamers using the UPnP / DLNA / OpenHome protocol.
Currently there is a LMS plugin that can be activated and provide basic support for this scenario. This is still being tested to check whether it's a stable option and will still need to be integrated properly into the Innuos Sense UI. But soon we will provide an article to show you how to enable/disable this option so you can try on your systems.

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Neelesh Hundekari

I bought the Innuos primarily because it has an ethernet port for streaming music. I find the sound quality the best via ethernet. I have a Hegel HD30 DAC with an ethernet port. Before I bought the Innuos I used to stream from my NAS to the DAC using Bubble UPnP.

Now I have use the inbuilt Roon core/player and Roon picks up the 'Airplay" option on my DAC and am able to then play from the Innuos via ethernet (the Hegel HD30 does is not wifi enabled). Joao of the support team actually figured this out for me! (thanks Joao!).

But will be great to have the option in the app itself so one doesnt need BubbleUPnP or Roon. Thanks for taking this up. Eagerly look forward to this feature.


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Woodbar

My Zen Mini Mk3 + LPSU all setup and I must say I am very impressed with the SQ feeding the Lyngdorf TDAi1120 via optical. I am now eager to try the UPnP but a bit confused - will I break anything trying the plug-in available now or is there still an update to be applied?


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Woodbar

Just waiting for my Zen Mini Mk3 + LPSU to arrive so reading all I can on the subject!
I want to be able to use the UPnP function on my Lyngdorf TDAi1120 streaming digital Amp with the Innuos Sense app (which looks superb) so I am hoping this is, or will be, possible? The Lyngdorf does not have USB input - only digital and Ethernet.
The Lyngdorf app is very good EXCEPT for navigating content on UPnP sources!


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monochromios

Great news Nuno.
LMS DLNA plug in works quite flawlessly once refined with some additional code lines.
Native LMS multiroom option anyway is much more reliable to me and most importantly allows for synchronization between various players which is a great option IMO
Thank you and to your crew for your precious job.


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Arjen Rinzema

Could you maybe share these additional code lines?


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monochromios

I'm experimenting so at the moment it's a "don't try this at home". As soon as I'll have a stable solution for it it will be a pleasure to share it.


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Arjen Rinzema

okay, thanks


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Petersfi

Just updated to 2.10 and lost internet workaround, :9000/Default/settings/index.htm
No longer brings up the lps menu. What has changed?


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Nuno Vitorino

You'll need to install the plugin again manually on LMS. The update needed to refresh the LMS plugins installed and since this is not a plugin we normally use, it's uninstalled by this. We expect to release on version 2.1 a direct integration on innuOS that resolves these inconveniences.


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Kim Bahlke

Is there a eta on this update…?


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Petersfi

Thanks for prompt reply. Unfortunately, I do not know how to install the plugin. The :9000 suffix does not work.


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monochromios

Try to go first to www.mysqueezebox.com and login. Then try again the :9000 suffix. I hope this helps you.


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Petersfi

Yes thank you!


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Petersfi

Fixed thanks.


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monochromios

Never mind. I’m glad you solved the problem.


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Mat

Hello @Nuno, I have a question, I just received the zen and installed the upnp bridge. Everything works great with my Hegel H390 with integrated streamer. Just wondering in the purpose of best sound accuracy, in the upnp bridge setting, is it better to not transcode or transcode to PCM and send PCM 24 bit to the streamer when playing FLAC/Quobuz? Thx in advance. Mathieu.


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Mat

Also is it better practice to activate flow check box to properly buffers and unpack to pcm?


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Nuno Vitorino

It does depend on the streamer. Our purpose is to start building profiles based on the community feedback to facilitate installing for users. You can try both ways and check if there is any difference in sound. Transcoding to WAV is very light on the server, should not have much of a influence there.


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Mat

Ok, thx for the guidance. Transcoding to PCM wav definitely better than sending FLAC directly to streamer but the sound looses a little of its punch, which seems to be fixed when forcing the upnp bridge to send PCM raw by having raw first in the codec pcm format list advanced options. Most streamer however do not report 24 bit raw pcm capabilities in their protocolInfo (audio/L24;rate=*;channels=*) only 16 bit raw pcm (audio/L16;rate=*;channels=*) so additional MimeType need to be added in advanced codec option section in the form of something like audio/L24;rate=192000 and keep resample and sample size at source in the transcode advanced option. Now raw first is definitely not as stable as having wav first in the PCM format list, not sure why, something the do with the header needed to be known by the upnp streamer before anything to be played by LMS. The flow option is not really manageable for more than couple of songs playlist and come with the restriction of fixed sample size and rate.


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Nuno Vitorino

Status changed to: In progress

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Arjen Rinzema

I can select my Naim NDS or the USB output of my ZENmini via the volume bar in the bottom right-hand corner of the screen since I installed 2.0.8. Thanks!
I have installed the UPNP-bridge plugin via IP-address-of-my-ZENmini:9000 as described below.


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Arjen Rinzema

I have now used this option to play to my NDS or my ND5XS. It works like a charm >90% of the time. Exceptions:
- some tracks from Qobuz do not play to the end. The next track starts too soon.
- sometimes if I pause a track, I can only restart it from the beginning.
- sometimes if I quickly jump to the next track multiple times, the system halts and I must go back some tracks to restart it. I know this problem from the SmallGreenComputer upnp-bridge.


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Martin

I am a potential Statement purchaser and Naim Streamer user and am concerned at not having access to the full functionality of the Statement. Is this issue only about use/convenience of the app or is there a sound quality impact? I assume I will be able to browse and select music stored on the Statement and select streaming services from the Naim app but will I be losing out on sound quality or only convenience?


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Nuno Vitorino

Hi Martin, this is just about using the Innuos Sense App and play music on the Naim using the features available on the Sense app. You can perfectly enable the UPnP Server on the Statement and use the Naim app as it currently stands.


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Dominik Tomaszewski

I used the UpNP plug-in with the older Innuos software and it worked okay, but there were always some issues. Now with InnuOS 2.0.7 it is very flakey. Hope to see it integrated and working correctly in the new OS very soon! PS otherwise loving the new app. Thanks Nuno!


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Arjen Rinzema

I installed Logitech Mediaserver 8.2.0 (LMS) on a Windows pc and enabled the plugins for Qobuz and UPnP/DLNA bridge. (This is the same LMS version that is installed on my ZENmini Mk3 with InnuOS 2.0.6..) From the LMS server on the pc, I can play directly to my Naim NDS via its UTP input. The system has now been playing a playlist from Qobuz with added albums from Qobuz and albums from my local library for over 10 hours non-stop. I can control it via the web interface of LMS or with an app on my tablet. It runs flawlessly and responds very quickly.

First impression is that the sound quality is slightly lower than that with the ZENmini as server, but there are more links in the chain and Windows settings, power supplies and cables have not been optimized yet.

Then I opened the LMS settings on my ZENmini via IP-ADDRESS:9000 and turned the UPnP/DLNA plugin on. Restarted the LMS server to complete the plugin installation; restarted the ZENmini just to be sure. In LMS Settings/UPnP/DLNA bridge I see that the Naim NDS has been discovered and added. But the InnuOS 2.0 system does not show it as player. The problem is InnuOS, not the underlying LMS.


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Nuno Vitorino

Are you sure? Have you clicked on the currently selected player name? That should provide with a list of available players.


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Arjen Rinzema

Yes, I am sure. I only see the built-in SPDIF output and the USB-SPDIF converter connected to a USB port. Refreshing the list does not help.


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Arjen Rinzema

Where exactly should I click on the player name?
I looked under Server>Settings>Player Settings.


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Arjen Rinzema

After the settings changes via the Logitech Media Server mentioned above, the ZENmini plays to my Naim NDS via UTP (UPnP) by default, even though the NDS is not visible in the Server>Settings>Player Settings>Player output list.
I cannot play to the players that are listed there, viz. the built-in SPDIF-output and the Sonore USB-to-SPDIF converter.
I did not notice this at first. I selected the SPDIF input, but the NDS automatically switches to the UTP (UPnP) input when a signal is present on this input. It overruled my input selection and I forgot to check...


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Nuno Vitorino

It's not supposed to be listed on the Player section at this stage. You can select the active player on player name that shows next to the volume control. This opens a list of available players.


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Arjen Rinzema

Hi Nuno, Thanks for responding. I tried to do what you suggest. The problem is that I see only one player (the NDS); the other two (which I see in the player settings) do not show up in the list you indicate. Actually, what happens is that volume slider expands for the current player (the NDS), but no list of players pops up. Regards, Arjen


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Nuno Vitorino

Please contact us on support so we can follow this up privately.


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Arjen Rinzema

I have emailed support.


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Arjen Rinzema

To put things in perspective:
- InnuOS should respond to our feature request. Give us a time line. After all, you advertise your servers as a high end solution for Naim (and other UPNP) users, and boast about the dedicated UTP port for streamers.
- But the 'old' way of using the InnuOS server via UPNP (with BubbleUPNP or the Naim app) still works.
- My problem with the 'old' way is that InnuOS 2 changed the sound via UTP. It has become too forward for my taste. My NUC with Windows and Asset UPNP now sounds better than my Zen Mini Mk3. With InnuOS 1.4.x it did not.

InnuOS claims that InnuOS 2 improves the sound quality, period. A repetition of what happened when they introduced version 1.4.3. It is almost like they do not understand that high-end hifi systems are a balancing act which can be disturbed by small changes somewhere in the chain.

InnuOS denies requests for a roll-back to an older OS version because that would undo bug fixes. Hard to accept... It should be possible to separate bug fixes and major OS changes, and to allow a user friendly roll back. PS Audio has done this for years. It is a right that buyers have, given their investment in high end audio gear.

I have been using a USB-to-SPDIF converter for a couple of weeks now, and I must say I enjoyed using the InnuOS 2 system and the Sense app. But sound quality is my priority. So, I have decided to put my plans for upgrading to a Zenith on the back burner, and to investigate alternative server solutions.


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Jeremey H

Just want to add to the voices of those ethernet-streaming users (Naim) who would love to utilize the new Sense app. I have read from the sidelines about the advances being made in the Sense app since no one with a UPnP-based ethernet streamer is able to utilize the new direction Innuos has taken. I've gone back to the Naim app since the initial InnuOS upgrades this summer with my Innuos Zen III basically acting as a very expensive hard drive. Would love to enjoy the benefits of the new OS and app. Otherwise the value-add many of us bought into with Innuos over the past 3-5 years has become irrelevant. Like everyone else I'd love to see this sooner rather than later. It does appear a handful of folks are able to utilize this LMS workaround in the meantime. Providing the promised article detailing how to use this workaround from July's would be a great stopgap since it's now October and no other mention has been made.


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Michael Steer

Since updating to version 2.06 I have been unable to configure my Zen mini mk2 to play to UPnP streamers and as a result my Naim Unitiqute 2 is unable to ‘see’ the Zen mini, with the result I can’t play my stored music. Zen mini is visible on my network. I have tried everything to get it to work. It worked fine on version 1.x. Innuos support team have been unable to come up with a solution and I’m tearing my hair out in frustration.


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Arjen Rinzema

I have the opposite: I cannot turn off the upnp server on my ZenMini Mk3.


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John Schmidt

I've just downloaded v2.06 and the interface seems much better than my previous 1.4.7. I just wanted to be sure that I understand the full potential of this version in my system. I have an Zen MKII connected by ethernet to a Naim NDS streamer. A Naim Muso streamer (1st gen) is also connected to the network by ethernet. I use the Naim app to play music from the server or from Tidal. So currently I could only use the Sense app instead of the Naim app with the NDS provided the Zen's USB digital output was connected to one of the NDS digital inputs, and I would not be able to do this with the Muso. However, this proposed feature addition would allow both these devices to be effectively controlled by the Sense app. If this is correct, I'm in!


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Arjen Rinzema

I'm eager to use my UPNP streamer with the Sense app. The app/operating system has tremendously improved the user friendliness, but I am now forced to insert a USB-to-SPDIF converter to use it with my Naim. I would very much like to go back to using UTP.


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Michael Steer

Is there any way to roll back to a previous version? At the moment my Zen mini is an expensive brick


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Michael Steer

Does this mean I can’t use my Naim Unitiqute 2 as a streamer with Zen Mini mkII (v2.0.5) as a server? Currently Sense can’t integrate a UPnP player


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rrgordon

This is a critical feature for those of us who use our Innuos device's Ethernet output to service multiple zones. In my case, after upgrading my Zen Mini Mk3 to 2.0.5 OS, I was disappointed to find no endpoint devices could be detected. In my home, I run Roon Core to stream wirelessly to 3 independent zones (a headphone station attached to an Auralic strreamer, a Q Acoustics "Q Active 200" loudspeaker in my living room, and a dedicated listening room also attached to an Auralic device). Ideally, testing can include these excellent endpoint products. As much as I'd like to try out the Sense control app, the current situation is a non-starter for anyone in my situation.


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AndreasH

Hi Nuno, will also the auralic femto streamer be part of your testings?


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Colin Goble

Today, I started the Sense app on my Android tablet, so that it was searching for servers before I started my ZENith. It found the (server and) player without needing a restart. (I'll try this again next time.)


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Nuno Vitorino

Status changed to: Planned

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Kim Bahlke

The lms plugin guideline/ article, is there any news of a timeline for when we will see it ???


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Nuno Vitorino

When we start working on it, it will show under the In Progress section on the roadmap. Sorry but we don't provide any dates to release features. This will depend on priorities and this can change - in fact this is the point of the Feedback Zone: You can all influence what's done next!


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Mary Hanley

Hi Nuno when will the update for the Zen mk2 be out, can not see any mention of it


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J

Hi Nuno - how does Naim Uniti Atom fit with your comment ?


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Nuno Vitorino

The Naim Uniti is one of the units being tested so yes it would apply to it.


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J

Fantastic - thanks 👍


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Nuno Vitorino

Status changed to: Under review